I Am An Atheist: Correspondence

I am no longer updating these pages. If you want to read current correspondence (and my responses), take a look at the IAmAnAtheist Blog. Thanks!

I'd just like to address a fairly minor point (at least in comparison with most of the concepts related to religious faith!) that you've made in reply to the person who accused you of making up other people's minds for them.

The point that I'd like to address is pretty much contained in this quote from you:

"The "you are now an atheist" concept is a joke, largely at the expense of those who believe that an intelligent person can just choose what to believe."

Specifically, the idea that an intelligent person can just choose what to believe. Now, I'm slightly playing devil's advocate here, but my own perspective on that issue is that an intelligent person actually can choose what to believe, as well as choose how to behave and feel in any given situation. However, I am not stating that they may *just* choose, but that byt their own choice they may modify their own beliefs however they please.

Now, I am by no means suggesting that this process is easy in all, or even the majority of cases. For example, it would be very easy to change a weakly held belief that the only word worth saying is banana, but it would be very difficult indeed to sincerely adopt a belief that a human can live without breathing oxygen.

The reason I say I'm playing devil's advocate a little is that in the case of belief about the necessity of breathing oxygen, it would be so difficult to change that belief that it would be nigh on impossible. The devil's advocate in me is saying that this does not mean that its impossible. The exact nature of the belief here doesn't really matter, since we can easily imagine beliefs that would be nigh on impossible, if the breathing oxygen example is not sufficiently difficult.

I haven't actually argued my case here, merely presented my opinion on the matter, but essentially my case is that this is precisely what one can learn from a psychological therapy technique known as Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. My trust that Cognitive Behavioural Therapy can change how one feels, behaves and believes about things is born out of personal experience, which obviously I can't simply transmit to you. So really, I am unable to argue my position, except to point to empirical evidence that Cognitive Behavioural Therapy works, which must be interpreted as you see fit, obviously.

Also, I'd just like to say that I find your correspondence very interesting, and think that it's a very good thing that you receive and respond to comments other than the shouting and abuse demonstrated by some. It's good to see some genuine debate on the matter, rather than the dogma which appears so often on both sides of religion/atheism debates, particularly online.

If I have misinterpreted your position on the matter I've just commented on at far too much length, then I apologise, but at least I've given you something to chew on. <grin> Also, I've never formally studied philosophy, so if there are good arguments against my position that you think are worth mentioning please let me know. I'm always interested in any arguments against any position I take, cos how else am I supposed to develop my thinking on the question?

Cheers, and sorry for the length. Succinctness is not often one of my strengths...

If I understand correctly, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is a means by which one can use inner dialogue to modify bad mental habits or change negative feelings. I suppose that one could use this technique to gain a belief in something one initially knew wasn't true, but this, it seems to me, would essentially be self brainwashing.

Even if I am incorrect on this point, though, I think that it has no impact on my statement.

If a religious person comes up to me and says that I should not worry about rational arguments and "just believe" that God exists and Jesus died for my sins, I cannot, as a rational and sane individual, simply instantly gain that belief by choice. It may be possible that through a process such as that you describe I could build up a belief in the supernatural. However, before doing that I would have to make a conscious decision to undergo a process that I knew would mess with my thoughts and emotions, and I would need to be convinced that this was a worthwhile course of action before doing so. Which brings us pretty much right back where we started — to the necessity of convincing me that God exists through rational argument.

I should also point out that, in my opinion, using a process such as you describe to create belief in something I currently believe to be untrue and that I am not convinced reflect reality is not rational. Forcing myself to believe in God just because it would make me happy makes just as much sense as forcing myself to believe that I'm the long-lost King of Prussia for the same reasons.

I saw of your recent conversations with the man who s girlfriend was a Christian and he believed he was an agnostic. It got me thinking. I have a somewhat similar situation. At least from the relational perspective.

My wife and I were married last year. We are very much in love and I cannot imagine my live without her. When we met one of the first things I did was tell her that I wasn't a Christian. During that time I wasn't sure what I was. I had been raised in a Catholic family. It was fairly conservative as Catholics go but I had a pretty good education at a Catholic high school an some of the more archaic believes were no longer being taught. They were hard-line on things like abortion, euthanasia, no women priests, etc but also taught that while they believed the bible contained inherent truth that many of the stories in the Old Testament were not meant to be taken literally. I appreciated this very much. I did believe in God and in Catholic teachings and this willingness to acknowledge that some of the old miracle stories were not literal made a lot of sense to me.

During my time in college I continued to attend church every Sunday but this was an extremely progressive Catholic church. They encouraged me to think outside the box and be accepting of other religions and faiths. These new teachings coupled with my philosophy courses pushed me toward agnostism. I realized that his existence wasn't scientifically justifiable so all I had was faith and quite frankly that just wasn't enough for me.

Since that time I've found that I am very happy with my life and do not feel like I'm missing anything by not believing in God. But back to reason I'm writing you. Like I said, I told my soon to be wife when we met that I wasn't Christian/Catholic. I felt it was important to reveal that to her right away because I knew she came from a Catholic family like mine. Well we jumped in with both feet and are happily married. But that doesn't stop me from worrying about how our differences will affect us later. She says that she does believe in God and the Christian belief that Jesus is the son of God. But she is also fairly progressive. She doesn't believe that Catholics are 100% right and all the (insert your religion of choice) are wrong. In fact the only groups that do bug her are the extremists from any religion who shout that they re right and everyone else will burn or suffer or whatever because they don't believe in the right god.

She s never said she wanted to convert me back to being Catholic or forced me to attend church with her. She asks me to go with her and most of the time I do because it doesn't really bother me and I know she appreciates having me there with her. And probably in her heart she wishes I did believe. But (and here's the part that gives me pause) we don't talk about it. I will occasionally broach the subject. Just trying to see why she believes or whatever. I try to be delicate with it. I don't want to strip her of something that does make her feel good inside or give her life direction. But I guess part of me expects that if she tried to vocalize why she believed it more often then it would cause her to think about it and maybe start asking herself those questions. But she usually avoids the subject. She doesn't like to bring it up or talk about it because I think it makes her uncomfortable and she doesn't like to make waves.

What bothers me is that one day we may have children. If we choose to have children then we'll reach a point where we HAVE to talk about it. The question will come up about where to send them to school? Do they attend just Catholic church, do we expose them to multiple faiths, or expose them to none? I personally want my children to be free to decide for themselves. But of course children at a very young age don't have the cognitive skill to make those choices. I'm afraid that sending them to a Catholic school will imprint on them while they are impressionable and that will be that. Could I undermine what they learn in school? Of course I could but that would probably just confuse them more and make my wife unhappy.

I could go ON AND ON about how having children will complicate things but the root of all of it right now is that we don't talk about or differences. I don't know if I'm seeking your advice or just venting. But it does worry me. Because I do love her so much I don't want this to become a problem. I know every marriage has problems of varying degrees but as always, issues of religion tend to have their own especially high level of complexity. It's not a regular argument over where to live or what car to buy. It's an issue that's deeply tied to who people are and they will fight to protect and may be deeply hurt of you take it from them.

I'll stop now because I could go on and on but I think I've said all that needs to be said for you to get my drift. Lastly I want to thank you for putting together your website. I do appreciate that you always give respect where it deserved and that you can carry on civil debate and conversations with theists and atheists alike.

I am flattered that you chose to write to me about this very personal subject, and I will offer what advice and support I can. I think you are absolutely correct to want to work this out with your wife now, before children are on the scene and the issue is forced. I also would like to complement you on your attitude toward your wife's beliefs — you are supportive and realize that she may have different needs than you do, which is something some atheists and agnostics have a hard time doing.

Obviously you need to discuss religion with your wife, but this is difficult because she is uncomfortable with the subject. Is it possible that she thinks you think less of her for being religious? Many non-religious people have a condescending attitude toward religious people, so it's important that your wife know you are not like that.

If you have read some of my past conversations, you may have noticed that I believe some people have an emotional need for religion and that I don't condemn them for this. You seem to think along the same lines. So I'd say that the first thing you need to do, if you haven't already, is make sure that you wife knows you understand that the two of you have different emotional needs in this area and that there's nothing wrong with that. Fortunately, because your wife is Catholic, she does not believe that you will be sent to damnation for not being a Christian, so you don't have to worry about her fearing for your soul (assuming that you're living a moral life, of course <G>).

I think it's nice that you go to church with your wife if it makes her happy. I see no reason not to continue to do this. There is a sticky point, though, about whether or not you should receive communion. You did not bring up this subject, but as a non-Catholic I do not believe that you should receive communion. If there is any doubt on this subject, your wife should speak with her priest about it.

The reason the communion point is important is that you want to make sure your wife isn't basing her future on the hope that you will return to Catholicism. By the same token, I don't think you should worry about whether your wife will some day lose the need for God. You guys can live happily with the beliefs you have right now. If those beliefs change, fine. If the don't, fine. There is nothing insurmountable here.

But what about when you have children?

That's a tough one, but I don't think it's as tough as you might think. I think the key thing here is that your children understand that Mommy and Daddy have a difference of opinion, that the difference is based on how you feel (as opposed to on objective proof of whether God exists), and that you all love each other anyway. Your wife can help your children learn about Catholicism, and you both can help them learn about asking questions and thinking rationally. I'd say, don't worry so much about trying to "undo" any learning, just make sure your kids have the tools to undo it themselves when they get older, if necessary.

I wouldn't worry too much about Catholic school. Choose a school that is best for your child from an education standpoint and help your child see religious education from both your and your wife's perspective. There's actually plenty of important cultural information in religion, so there can be a benefit to learning such things even for an atheist. I also think that knowing a bit about religion can make a person a better (or, at least, more tolerant) atheist.

Now, I will hasten to point out that there are plenty of atheists who are going to disagree with me on all of this. They will see the difference of religion as a war to be won through your children. They will see it as evil to give children religious education. I don't see how a marriage can be anything but a time bomb with that kind of thinking. Don't go there.

I also should point out that I would feel very differently if you were an atheist or agnostic and your wife was a fundamentalist Christian. There is a big difference between fundamentalism and Catholicism. Modern Catholicism actually gives a lot of leeway for freedom of thought and doesn't condemn people for asking questions. Those are both factors in your favor.

So, to sum up: You love each other. Talk it over. It's not a war. Nobody has to change to make things work.

I hope some of this has been useful to you. Please feel free to write again if the mood strikes you.

Firstly, let me thank you for presenting ideals that I have held close to my hart since adolescence. Also thank you for posting the opposing ideals of the others, as one would not see such statement of atheism on any religious website.

Preface: I will speak in regards to Christianity, as I am not very knowledgeable as to other religions, though I am sure the following relates.

Fear, according to wiktionary is An uncontrollable emotion of anxiety about something that causes a scared reaction or frightening impression. Fear and fear alone is the driving force behind all religion. Not the so called love of a Heavenly Father or his begotten love child, or some ghost that tickles the hairs on the back of ones neck. Since the dawn of man, from him monkey forefathers, fear has been the justification for religion to rape, murder, pillage, enslave, seize and degenerate mankind. And to this day fear is what drives losers like myself and the other fuckos to defend their ideals on this website.

It has been said that mans greatest flaw is the knowledge of his own demise. With this understanding we can see how fear has become the catalyst for a needed God. The prospect of nothingness post death is certainly unnerving to all persons. We all fear death like we all fear the unknown; the question we should all ask our self is how are we going to deal with this fear.

Theist: I shall live the literal message of the Bible. I shall putt my faith in my religious leader s judgment and that of my brethren. I shall tolerate other religions, though I shall never concede to there ideals, for I know my religion is the one true path to heaven. I shall pretend to not fear death for I am told that I am heaven bound. I shall not use reasoning to question a place beyond the physical laws of our universe. I shall strike out at those persons and ideals who threaten MY FACT MY TRUTH .

Atheist: I shall live my life as I see fit. I shall putt my faith in myself and others who use objective reasoning. I shall tolerate and embrace the people of all religions, reaming open to all ideals and perceptions on life and death, never assuming I know fact because I FEEL it is right inside of me. I shall fear death, darkness and nothingness, though I will LIVE to the best of my ability and reach achievement outside the bound of heaven. I shall use reasoning to question everything in order to find FACT and TRUTH . I shall strike out at persons who use religious Doctrine as fact.

You make a number of interesting points, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't.

I agree that some religious belief comes from fear of death. However, I also think that much of religion comes from a need for answers where simple answers may not be available. Why are there disasters? Where did the universe come from? How can disease be cured? You might call this fear of the unknown, if you like. A third "fear" that leads to religious belief is the fear of injustice. Without a deity, some wrongs will go unpunished and some bad things will happen for no reason.

On the other hand, I would say that you could name fear as the cause of atheism as well. In this case, it might be the fear of believing things that are untrue. To an atheist, the truth is more important than certainty. And to the strong atheist — one who says that there is no possibility of a deity — there may in some cases be fear motivating such a strong statement.

The point here is that fear, in and of itself, is not necessarily a bad thing as a motivator. It's a matter of what you do with it.

Your breaking down of theistic and atheistic beliefs is interesting, but unfortunately it does not allow for the wide variety of beliefs in these two areas. There are plenty of Christians who do not believe the Bible to be literally true, don't tolerate other religions, or don't strike out at those who disagree. Likewise, there are plenty of atheists who don't tolerate religion, aren't open to all possibilities, base beliefs on feelings, or don't fear death.

Beliefs and motivations are incredibly varied. I think you would be hard pressed to find two meaningful boxes in which everyone clearly fits.

I find it hard to believe that you don't believe what I believe. How can you not understand that the Bible is infalliable? For instance, it states that we were made in God's image. In the evolutionary debate and the larger, more important "banana is perfect for human use" example, we know evolution is ridiculous because humans were created perfectly by god. That is why we have appendix (Sorry if my spelling is off, I'm praying very hard for His guidance in that regard!!!!!) (also, I'm letting him lead me in my punctuation!!!!). Why would we have wisdom teeth if God didn't put them there???? Huh???? Or sinuses? Or the cocyx bone at the end of the spine? All these things show, without doubt that God CREATED us as is. I'll pray for you but I don't think it will do much good because the Bible says we have to make choices and by praying for you I'm asking God to influence you which would not be your choice. Actually, on second thought, I guess I won't pray for you. I'll p ray for aborted fetuses (fetusi?), and maybe soilders and murder victoms, and the sick. But mostly aborted fetuses.

May God have mercy on your soul for surely you'll go to hell when you die. But before then be sure to enjoy the lovely bananas He's provided.

You have every right to your beliefs or non beliefs. I am not sure which is the correct term. My oh my but the emails are a bit vitriolic . I have unanswered questions about the world, universe, life but there is bad news and good news as they say. The bad news is there is no key to the universe. The good news is that is was left unlocked. God or not, life is what you do with it- it is a journey. I guess we just all have different tickets and destinations. If free will was given to anyone then I think that means that you may feel and do what you feel that you should. I apologize for the closed and mean minds of those who believe (as they say that they do but do not sound like it at all). Sincerely yours in this world and who knows what others.

I would just like to say that I love your site. I just visited after being away for several weeks and caught the new section with your favorite hate-mail and I have to say that some very closed minded people have stumbled accross this infinitly small section of the internet and still don't have the intelligence to type in complete sentences or spell correctly. Funny how it doesn't seem that they have actually read the bible in context... Anywho, I love what you are doing and would like to say keep it up.

OMG I JUST THINK ITS SO SICK OF WAT UR DOING U CANT JUST GO AND SAY THAT GOD ISNT REAL CCUZ OF THAT ONE BABNANA THING WELL I CANT RMEMEBER THE LINK RIGHT NOW BUT IT SAYS THAT IF YOU CAN HODLD A BANANA IN UR HADNA THAT GOD IS REAL!

If I understand you, you're referring to the video in which a man describes a banana's "design" as proof that God exists. The argument is that a banana is just the right shape for the human hand, has a tab at the top so it's easy to open, has a biodegradable "container," turns yellow when it's ripe, and is easy to eat, and since these are all things that are handy for people, God must have designed bananas for people to eat.

Right off the bat, this argument ignores the fact that domestic bananas (the kind most of us are familiar with) are the product of selective breeding. Wild bananas had seeds and, if I remember correctly, were tougher and brown. Saying that God designed the modern banana for us is like saying that he designed dachshunds for us.

Even if we look at wild bananas, any "convenience" they might have for eating by humans could just as easily be the product of evolution. There are many plants that have evolved with fruit that is attractive to animals so that the animals will eat the fruit and excrete or discard the seeds, helping the plant spread to new locations. If wild bananas appealed to primates, they may have benefited in the same way.

I think the most important thing to note, though, is that this chain of reasoning sounds good when it's applied to bananas, but it's a mess when applied to other things. For example:

Cocoanuts are difficult to open, one must avoid sharp needles to get to cactus fruit, and improperly prepared pork can lead to serious illness. Can we conclude that God designed these things in this way so that we wouldn't eat them?
Or look at how good a tapeworm has it. Its human host protects it from predators, keeps it warm, feeds it, and has plenty of intestinal length for the parasiteto grow into. Can we conclude that God designed humans as homes for tapeworms?
Bananas are just the right shape to stick in the tailpipe of a car or abuse in an urban-legend-about-Richard-Gere kind of way. Were they designed for these purposes as well?

Really, this kind of thinking gets us nowhere.

It is an interesting byproduct of their breeding history that domestic bananas are sterile. I'd say that this argument is equally virile.

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