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You said that there are arguments that atheists make that are as bad as the arguments that Christians make. Can you name some? I can't think of any.
There are, unfortunately, plenty of them. A few that seem to come up a lot:
I'm sure more will come to mind as I think about this. And if any of my readers can think of more, please send them in!
I love your site. :) I usually stop by ever few days just for shit and giggles.
When asked politely, I identify myself as a non-believer because it is easier than explaining the differences between weak atheism, strong atheism and agnosticism. I do believe in certain things, just none of them have anything to do with organized religion or a supreme deity.
Once, my mom asked if I knew I was going to hell for not believing. Love my mom dearly, but she is a devout Catholic and she worries, like Catholic mothers do. I told her that if there is a god and he is the good, kind, understanding being that she believes in, then he will no doubt understand why I doubted and forgive me for it. On the other hand, if the god is the hateful, cruel, harsh god that people like Fred Phelps and other fundies believe in, I will happily burn in Hell rather than honor such a monster.
When I do identify myself as an atheist, it is generally because the person asking me is looking for a fight and I am in the mood to accommodate them. Your list of arguments have found their way into my responses, adding that dash of irreverence that - for me - makes life worth living. Most days I m firmly convinced we are here as comic relief and I am waiting for a giant coconut pie to hit us in the face. :)
I wanted to share with you, one of the best responses I have ever read in regards to atheism. Surprisingly, it came from a Christian. On a message board, we were discussing intelligent design. It was becoming rather heated and in a misguided attempt to lighten the atmosphere, I started a list of questions with no answers like how does the man who drives the snowplow get to work? and if a turtle loses his shell, is he homeless or naked? To keep in in topic, I ended with, when an atheist dies, do they do to the great perhaps? This did not go over well, but one response pretty much quelled everyone.
When an atheist dies, presumably the answer to the ultimate question is revealed or not. If not, the agnostic/atheist will never know and it won t matter FOR ANYONE and they will have lived life in the exact way they felt was right, evaluating the events of life from a deep internal place and achieving great personal satisfaction and passion from the process. If there is a god and the agnostic/atheist has lived a benevolent life, they will be forgiven and welcomed with the rest of God s creatures, as other famous questioners have been.
I guess the reason I like this response so much is that it dovetails neatly with my own thoughts. I have questions and I would rather believe that my questions will be understood and welcomed rather than punished. I was - still am to tell the truth - the annoying child who always asked what if rather than just why .
In the end, the one thing I believe firmly is that the world is an amazing place, full of wonder and curiosity. When I die, I will die happy knowing that I questioned rather than obeyed blindly.
Because I make my life as a consultant, I have to worry a bit about how others think of me. For that reason, I, too, sometimes avoid using the word atheist in conversation because some people (out of ignorance) automatically think negative things about atheists. When I'm asked about my religion, I usually answer that I'm not religious. I then follow up by asking what the questioner's religion is.
What's interesting to me is that when I ask the questioner's religion, I sometimes get a surprised look -- a "I'm Christian, of course" look. And sometimes they even say as much out loud. To some people, Christianity is the norm and everything else is a deviation (much in the way that, for a long time white men were the "norm" and the rest of us were a "deviation").
I was a little surprised that your Catholic mother says you're damned for not being a believer. My understanding (having been raised Roman Catholic) is that post Vatican II not being a believer is not sufficient for damnation in the beliefs of the Catholic church. In particular, if you are a weak atheist you should be on extra strong ground since you simply do not believe in God as opposed to "denying" him. I suggest that you ask your mother to ask her priest if someone can go to heaven by living a moral life if they are not Catholic and see what he says. It is important, however, that your mom not ask if an Atheist can go to heaven since this may be perceived as a different question.
Your response to your mother, by the way, is pretty much what I understand the Church to teach -- if you are being sincere in your beliefs and you lead a moral life, you're okay with God. I agree that any deity that would punish its creations for using the mental facilities it gave them is not worthy of worship.
I like the response you quoted about what happens after death. My own response to that question varies depending on who is asking it. I sometimes say, "the same place we were before we were born," or "the same place as everyone else." I also sometimes use, "We'll see when we get there," but that implies an afterlife so I use it sparingly.
Finally, good for you for questioning instead of blindly following. It's a good way to live, whether dealing with religion, science, politics, ethics, or morals. I wish there were more people like you.
You propaply get lots of all kinds of mail and I doupt you have the intrest on answering (or reading) pretty much any of them, but I just kind of stumbled on your site and I just got this urge to ask you that how do you suppose life began? and how would you determine life?
I personaly am realy not sure, but I somewhat think that there isnt any line between living an non-living "things". For example, i dont basicly know if we are so different from some planet or other "system" for example (functionaly speaking - planets dont actualy reproduce etc. but i dont see why reproducing should be quality to measure life) But for example bacteria funktion already pretty similary to us - since as i see it, we are just one hell of an complex circuitry to all kinds of wires and chemical stuff. Eaven more problematic creatures are the viruses, since they dont "do" anything, since they just make our cells do crazy stuff - but so do drugs, so if drugs get enough complex, can they be called alive? I dont think so, but just a tought..
As for how life began, i just cant figure anything concrete, one theory that i have been thinking would be something like chemical reactions starting to loop, and get more and more complex (there was atleast lots of time, but.. ) Anyway, i am propaply litle too young and immature to grasp the concept, actualy, at all, but your site was just so inspiring that i had to try something.
I read all of my mail, and I welcome all of it -- particularly that which asks interesting questions like yours.
How to determine if something is alive is a pain, from both a philosophical and scientific standpoint. The textbook answer is that something is alive if it is organized, metabolizes, grows, adapts, reacts to stimulus, maintains its internal environment, and reproduces. One can argue that viruses, fire, and even some kinds of computer software have these characteristics, but they are not considered to be alive.
But enough with textbooks. You asked my opinion.
I'd say that there is a line between living and non-living matter, and that although the line is fuzzy there are some things that are clearly on one side (dogs) or the other (rocks). What's most important to me is not whether something is alive in a scientific sense but how we treat something that is alive in a philosophical sense. You touch on this when you point out that living and non-living things are much the same in a chemical sense -- the dog and the rock may have many of the same elements, just organized differently. What's important is that we assign moral value to living things because we, ourselves, are living.
I think before killing something I consider alive -- yes, even bugs. That doesn't mean I never squish a cockroach, but it does mean that I don't do it thoughtlessly. I have no problem putting out a fire, however, because to me it has no life in any morally important way. Viruses are a bit on the line, but the harm they cause makes me not worry about disposing of them, whether you can argue that they are alive or not.
How did life begin? There are plenty of theories, and unfortunately we don't have enough information right now to discover which is correct. At some point there had to be a set of circumstances that facilitated the organization of chemicals in a way that led to self-replicating thingies. Yep, that's pretty vague, and it's pretty much in line with what you are thinking. If I were a biochemist I'm sure I could give you a better possibility.
Thanks for writing, and for the nice words about the site.
This is a truly inspiring site. I am amazed with your ability to be the perfect athiest. You're not a superior ass, but you're also unyielding in your unbelief. I aspire to be you when I grow up.
Thanks for the incredible compliment! I wouldn't say that I am a perfect atheist, but I do try hard to be the best person I can. I would hope that everyone would do the same.
It is good to see you are back and posting all the great conversations. I was sorry to hear about your luck and hope things are going better now.
I was wondering where you stand on the issue of morality. I'm speaking of the classic argument that goes on between absolutist and relativistic views of morality. Typically those who believe in a deity are more likely to favor an absolute morality, stating that is must come from somewhere and that somewhere is God or Allah or whatever.
I got into a discussion with some conservative christians that actually started from me simply commenting on a book Atheists: A Groundbreaking Study of America's Nonbelievers . The christian quickly took the conversation to morality. Stating basically that I could have no understanding of good or evil , right or wrong because with no God, all morality would be relative and people would just be killing left and right, fornicating with children, etc. I m seriously over simplifying his argument. It was much more lengthy and thought out but that s not really the point of why I was writing you.
This exchange got me thinking about the nature of morality as an atheist which I have not done since my de-conversion . I find myself trying to figure it out. I ve read about the absolutist views of morality (secular & religious) and the relativistic. Both stances give me pause and find problems with each extreme.
One piece of writing that did make a lot of sense to me personally was at www.ministerturnsatheist.org. It just asserts that Social Contract makes the most sense in determining morality. I agree with his argument when speaking of things like murder and torture and theft but feel like it falls short of explaining (or assigning a moral value) to homosexuality, abortion, euthanasia, capital punishment, and a number of other issues.
Since you ve been doing this for a long time I was wondering how you feel about this. As an atheist I m sure you ve run into theists who have thrown this argument at you. I m not looking for you to explain your whole moral philosophy but I just wondering if you take a more absolute or relative approach and how you defend your assertion of either.
Thank you for keeping up with the site. It s always enjoyable to read what you post.
Wow -- not like this is a big subject! (Not that I mind!)
To start, I've certainly heard many versions of the argument that without God there is no morality. Generally, in my experience, this argument falls in one or more of the following ways:
So, if I don't buy the morality-from-a-deity argument, where do I get my morality? Good question.
My morality is built on three things (in order of importance):
Let's deal with instinct first because it is both the easiest to talk about and the least important. People, as animals, have certain instincts that have evolved to protect us as a species. These include protecting myself and protecting my loved ones. Other instincts have little impact on morality, but impact moral decisions (such as the feeling that puppies are cute). Instincts are not morally compelling, but they should be examined for moral value.
Culture is also important. I believe that there is an amount of good in respecting cultural values so long as they do not interfere with a higher morality. For example, walking around topless on the beach might be okay for anyone in France, but not in the United States. The only moral difference is cultural.
Reason is the most important factor, and it is also the most complex. I believe that any system of thought should at least obey two rules: It should be self consistent, and it should not condemn those who think as I do. An enormous amount of morality can be derived from these two rules by using them to weed out moral rules that I might like but that do not contribute to a consistent morality.
Some examples:
I think you'll see that much of this boils down to the same thing as the social contract mode of deriving morality. If I have left any questions unanswered, let me know.
Nice site - keep up the good work.
Have you ever thought that if god existed, then he, she or it would have to be an atheist? After all, a supreme being could not admit to there being a higher god.
Neat point!
Well, that would only be true if an atheist was someone who did not believe in a power higher than himself. Without the "than himself" phrase (which, I think, is dubious), God would, by definition, believe himself to be the higher power and therefore not be an atheist.
On the other hand, if an atheist is a someone who is without religion, then you are absolutely correct that God would be an atheist. You don't need faith if you are God, and in fact omnipotence would negate the possibility of having it.
"And God sat beside the fallen Cowboy, and He drank from the dry canteen." The fun thing about blind faith is that it provides so much amusement. And since we are all blind, this life is going to be nothing but fun, right? After so many years of digging for a "truth" I knew I counldn't find, I find that what I've sought is nothing more than the search itself. In other words, I'm finding that there's little I can say about reality that amounts to more than self-gratifying noise. That must be what the end of "faith" feels like. I wonder if that depresses me?
My wife's grandfather is finally about to kick off into the Great Mystery, and I'm soooo glad she turns to me for silent comfort rather than explanation. She knows there are angels and spirits and a God -- without the "benefit" of a theological upbringing -- because she has to. That's a question with a period.
I mention it because (with a little imagination) it seems such a classic example of where we are as a people, always trying to find ways to explain life and death to the living. She has asked me to explain to her what I know of the quantum and the macro, and how this leads to some intellectual "salvation" or comfort (same thing, in my book). All that stuff is comprehensible, even for the mathematically-challenged. But there's something sadly lacking.
We truly are islands, some desperate for a signal to come home to reason. The void isn't there for me, but for others it is bottomless without imagining a safe harbor. What is your safe harbor?
You make very good points here about the need for a "safe harbor," no matter what your philosophical leanings. I agree with you that those who look for something comforting in the facts of physics or try and find angels in equations are probably going to fall short of being comforted. Too many people on this kind of quest seem to just be looking for something they don't understand -- a "mystery," if you will -- to hang their hat on, and that leads to all sorts of new-age silliness.
As for myself, I have three safe harbors.
The first is wonder in the world around me. I think that the search for knowledge, the quest to know the world around us, is one of the most wonderful things in all of existence. I love to read about new discoveries in the sciences, whether they are in physics, history, biology, or any other area of investigation. We are the only creatures on earth that can crack the puzzles that surround us, and I am thrilled to be part of a species with such power.
The second is the wonder of human thought and creativity. I adore investigating how the human mind works, trying to put together the thoughts of people from long ago (this is part of why I love to read about Biblical times), and seeing a new, successful, original human creation. As a child I adored Ben Franklin and Walt Disney as icons of the drive to create. As an adult, I sometimes cry at movies, not because of their content, but because I get so excited with someone's vision is well executed (as an aside, this means that I've teared up at some pretty weird movies, like Fight Club, and that I get really annoyed by films that have no vision beyond marketing).
The third is my desire to have an impact on the world around me. I love making people laugh because I think it helps them get through the day. I love sharing philosophy with people, because I think that a self-examined life is a better life. I want the world to be a tiny, tiny bit better place when I leave it than it was when I came into it. Working toward that is probably the biggest safe harbor I have.
Note: The below letter may be easier to read on the Notable Conversations page, where I have preserved the quotes from the item he's responding to.
I do play with words. It's something I enjoy because there are many echoes of a past and of truth hidden in the usage of our many languages. I hope you don't mind some counterpoints. I hope you don't mind a bit of a continuation of my previous posting. I know, I know, you don't like forums for this subject but, I simply could not resist.
Again, point by point;
**Here we are in agreement, I think. If there is a God and if It is omnipotent, etc., then we have no way of comprehending It's nature.**
**That is my feeling. These customs came from war like, tribal peoples and therefore have those elements embedded. These traditions being responsible for some good is true, yet some of the most atrocious acts have been committed on behalf of these churches. The bad most certainly outweighs the good.**
** If we are to believe the big bang theory, we are led to believe that all of the matter and energy present in the universe today was locked inside a speck (marble size?) and was released in a fury. "All of the matter and all of the energy", means all of the information available. Just because we can't calculate it, does not mean it is not True.**
**In my mind, "the energy of creation" implies the frozen state energy found inside the (theoretical) singularity. We are, after all, composed of this stuff. Not just the electricity in our bodies. Remember, matter is just an expression of energy. Yes, I am implying a Creator. (Stop picturing the old man sitting on a throne. :-) )**
**It doe not imply that. However, there is much we do not understand about the universe, dark matter, dark energy, string that vibrate to create reality. The universe is no doubt a self-organizing system. Doe It have consciousness? Well, what the heck do we know about consciousness? We know that everyone experiences the world differently. We know that dolphins, whales, elephants, etc. are self aware. But, where does the definition stop. I would postulate the universe to be alive. Teeming with different expressions of the same rudimentary stuff. I can't say It is self aware, the way us monkeys are self aware. But, if we are made up of the stuff stars are made of, then we are the universe experiencing itself.**
**Cave men would bury their dead. That either implies a belief in the after life or, that corpses stink and you have to get rid of them. But, why the rituals involved? Many Native Tribes all around the world have beliefs which are more spiritual and personal, than religious and imposed. Spirituality is an inward process. Religiosity is an outward event.**
**Today's science is profit and personal aggrandizement driven. That's not to say there is no "good" research going on but, it seems that it is driven in particular directions, at times detrimental to our existence. Many lay people and scientists feel that we know everything and what we don't, the answers are right around the corner. We should all have faith in the inexplicable. For instance, we know cell phones work but, we don't know why.**
**Technical progress does not imply anything as proven. Progress happens because we are able to observe what works by trial and error. Better math reduces the error rates, yet these remain. The theory of evolution is a funny point for people to contest. It is only an observation of change. It postulate that life came from simple origins and has progressed in to more complex form. Chaos theory, in some ways, opposes this change as natural. Systems should strive towards simpler forms, ones having an easier time surviving. Yet, that is not the case. Sure, life forms have changed, perhaps even evolved but, why? Natural selection should have precluded all simplicity. Better yet, how does a flower know that a bee will be attracted to a particular scent or color? How does an ant know that leaves will grow fungus which they can then eat? It all remains a theory because it is all still mysterious. To fall in to full belief of any scientific theory is no different than becoming a fundamentalist. The nice thing about science is that it allows for a change of theory a lot easier than religion.**
**Umm, everything happens for a reason or because of a reason. There is no such thing as an unconnected event. Let me explain. The Tsunami. People were killed because they lived near the ocean (happened because of a reason). People who moved from the coast will not be drowned by a tsunami again (the tsunami happened for a reason; people were not bright enough to know that the last one, was not the last one. Those that learned, survived the last one). It's all about using available information, which is there for a reason.**
Picture omnipotence . . . . It exists but, has not motivation to do so. We live "for" something; ourselves, others, love, religion, etc. But, why would omnipotence need to exist for anything. It has no needs, want, no motivation. Except, perhaps, for one. What would happen if "It" stopped existing . . . BANG!
One more thing, never trust a man who tells you he knows what God wants but, I think you already know that ;-)
I think we may have a bit of difficulty discussing these topics because we have a great divide in our use of certain terms. I'll give it a shot, though.
Regarding information in the universe. I disagree that "all of the matter and all of the energy means all of the information available." So far as I understand, the only way this could be true would be if you were saying that determinism implies having all possible information at any given time (assuming no quantum randomness). You continue, saying "Just because we can't calculate it, does not mean it's not True" -- and while this is correct, it is also correct that if we can't calculate it then the "information" effectively does not exist.
For example, one might say that from a deterministic perspective the winner of the 2007 World Series has already been decided. But if I were to ask, "Then who is going to win" and the response was "There's no way to tell," I would have to wonder about the value of the original statement.
"All information that ever will be currently exists" might be an interesting philosophical point, but I would argue that it is of purely linguistic interest since, if we define our terms in what might be a more useful manner, it disappears.
I have the same sort of problem with your discussion of a creator and consciousness. If the universe is alive, and if it has a consciousness, then you can say that it has a creator (effectively itself, I suppose). But in order to make this argument, you have to turn "consciousness" into a bigger unknown than it is. I agree that we have unknowns about consciousness, but some things are not on the borderline of our understanding. I see no compelling reason to believe that the universe is conscious.
You are right that some primitive humans had religious beliefs, but to me this does not say that religion goes back to our origin as a species. I think this is a minor, technical point, though. You are right that there has probably been religion for as long as there has been what we could call people.
I agree that a lot of science is driven by commerce and ego, but I don't know that this is a recent thing. I also agree that humans sometimes create things detrimental to our existence, but I think there's a difference between what research finds and what we do with that research.
I'm not sure what you mean about having faith in the inexplicable. Your example about cell phones is a little lacking because cell phones are not inexplicable. At most, I have faith that whoever is running my cell phone company knows what they are doing, and this is a far cry from faith in the inexplicable.
You are right that technical progress does not imply that anything is proven. However, there are many areas of science where there is so much data that scientists treat a theory as proven.
I also disagree some of your points about evolution (or I'm misunderstanding your point). You say that chaos theory opposes progression from simple to complex forms. Do you mean thermodynamics? So far as I recall, chaos theory only says that we could never get enough data to predict how the system would develop, not that it would not become more complex.
I also disagree that systems should strive toward "simpler forms, ones having an easier time surviving." Simpler things do not necessarily survive better.
Your questions about how a flower knows a bee will be attracted, etc., seem based on a false assumption. Who says that the flower knows anything? The theory of evolution is not goal oriented -- flowers do not see the need to attract bees and therefore evolve a pleasant scent. I feel like you are creating mysteries where none are necessary.
When you say, "everything happens for a reason" and talk about a tsunami, you are mingling the words "cause" and "reason." A cause does not imply a reason (although there may be a reason). As in other parts of your discussion, you are using a word that sometimes has implications of intelligence (reason or creator) when a purely mechanical word would suffice (cause) and using this to imply that the intelligence must therefore exist.
Unfortunately, your definition of omnipotence seems likewise murky to me, so I can't agree with your conclusion that, without it, there would be nothing.
Thanks for the clarification and the speedy reply - wow!
Thanks also for your question about the distinction between faith and the existence of god. My immediate response is - I'm not that bothered about god, the afterlife, etc, but would like to have the comfort of faith. I see many people who have faith that have some sort of certainty or inner strength that I wish for myself.
Reading that back to myself, it seems that what I want is the comfort of certainty - which is something none of us can have. Ah ha! I don't discuss this sort of stuff much, so don't often get the sort of questions to help me clarify my thoughts - cheers!
BTW, as far as the lottery goes, I'm in the UK and I actually do think that there is more chance of the second coming than winning the lottery - and that's a fact!
It sounds like you have a really good handle on your beliefs, which is quite a good (and rare) thing.
Someone once said that religion is certainty and science is truth. Too bad we can't have both, but I, like you, prefer the latter.
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